Carbs are worse at breakfast than later in the day

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Question:

I don’t agree

Me neither. I’d want to see the entire study as it probably has certain conditions under which hyperinsulinemia occurs in the AM. In a non-diabetic, ketotic individual, I don’t see how. Liver glycogen is depleted, so there is no overnight LG dump. The last meal before sleeping may give an insulin spike from protein conversion to glucose, or from carbs eaten, but after 8 hours of fasting, this glucose & the attendant insulin spike would be long gone. Yes? More importantly, the post says insulin "resistance" is higher in the AM. Someone who’s been successfully ketotic beyond the first two weeks or so, ingesting only 20-30gm of CHO, is probably well on the road *away* from insulin resistance, and *toward* enhanced insulin sensitivity. I may be too liberal in terms of time period in establishing healthy insulin sensitivity, but you get the drift — once longterm hyperinsulinemia is corrected, carb & fat intake are most likely oxidized, not stored as fat. No? Finally, my own experience is that my metabolism in the AM is *S-L-O- W*, and blood samples done in the morning vs. other times of day have shown lower BG levels for me in the morning. Other indicators, BP & HR, are also "flatline" in the AM — No, I’m not dead but I feel that way until I move around a bit or get my caffeine injection. I then proceed to having about 1/4 my daily carb allotment for breakfast. No problemo. :) My two cents, Dave Before you buy.

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I thought your metabolism was slowed down after fasting. Well, when you first get up you’ve been fasting for 8 hrs and your metabolism is revved up. Also, presumably, insulin resistance is much lower.

– Mary Sweathe San Francisco, CA 160/130/120 LC Vegetarian Page: http://www.geocities.com/msweathe/veggie.html

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Not the sports team. Real Vikings. Norwegians in my case. — –

Close enough! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm

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Uh, this may come as a shock to you after all these years, but there is another part of the day in between the morning and the evening…

Uh, actually, it seems as if there *is* generally the most disparity between appetite and other metabolic-related stuff between morning and evening, at least for most folks. That’s why you see a lot of posts about people who don’t feel like eating in the morning, or who have to eat or their day is ruined. And other people who have a much harder time controlling their appetite or carb cravings in the evening. For some reason there don’t seem to be as many issues noted regarding the middle of the day, based on my observation. (Other than, of course, the usual technical issues we face in trying to figure out what to pack for lunch away from home other than a sandwich). Linnen

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Actually there is some basis for "burning off" carbs, although perhaps not in the context stated. It’s been long noted on this NG that a carb overindulgence can be countered by a good workout, making your excursion out of ketosis shorter, or even non-existant depending on the extent of your carb intake. The idea is to burn off the carbs instead of depositing them in the liver etc. as glycogen. This would seem to suggest that if you eat carbs in the am and then use them up by exercise or work during the day, it might be easier to stay in ketosis than if you eat the same amount of carbs in the evening before bed. I guess it would depend on your activity level. Linnen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There is no scientific basis (cf Dr. Atkins, Drs. Eades, Dr. Sears, etc.) for: – "burning off"

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But that theory doesn’t explain WHERE carbs are stored until this "burnoff" point. When you metabolize carbs, they can only go to blood glucose. If at the time you eat the carbs, there is no consumption ALREADY going on, all excess carbs not being burned in muscle AT THAT MOMENT (and not being used for glycogen restoration) can only go to fat — your blood glucose will be allowed to rise only so much before it’s gotta be dumped into fat cells RIGHT AWAY. There is no other "holding area" for carbs.

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says… And your supporting science for this claim is… what? Look in just about any diet book or magasine…. …because diet books and magazines never, ever give incorrect or

Like some folk in newsgroups? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – incomplete information. Cheers, Nina Try to keep in mind insulin sensitivity is greatest when you first wake up. Cowboy

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WOW, nice of ya to remember me! )) — Cheers Chris www.musclemonkey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk Send SMS message to me at: http://sms.totalise.net/?go=7968792241

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… And your supporting science for this claim is… what? Look in just about any diet book or magasine…. …because diet books and magazines never, ever give incorrect or incomplete information. Cheers, Nina Try to keep in mind insulin sensitivity is greatest when you first wake up. Cowboy

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, be still my heart. Another Vikings fan. 11-2 Skol Vikings!!!!! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm Really? I always thought it was better in the morning because you would burn it off. I guess if I’m ever going to have that donut, then the morning is not the time to do it! Thanks for the tip Ken. I’ll make use of it!! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm Egads. Shouldn’t all us vikings be in Minnesota? — –

Not the sports team. Real Vikings. Norwegians in my case. — –

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Ah, be still my heart. Another Vikings fan. 11-2 Skol Vikings!!!!! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Really? I always thought it was better in the morning because you would burn it off. I guess if I’m ever going to have that donut, then the morning is not the time to do it! Thanks for the tip Ken. I’ll make use of it!! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm Egads. Shouldn’t all us vikings be in Minnesota? — –

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Alice, thanks for posting this information. I learn so much about blood sugar control from the diabetics here that it (almost) make me want to visit one of the diabetes ngs. Of course the fact is that I can’t even keep up with this one. I’ve considered getting one of the diabetic testing kits, also, so I can do my own, personal experimentation… but I hate needles and blood… lol. One of the theories about the benefits of LC is that it stabilizes BG levels during the night and thus allows a lot of people to sleep better. That is true for me. I used to wake up with ugly hypoglycemic episodes, sometimes several times a night. When not on LC I still wake more frequently. Interesting information, thanks! Linnen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good questions, all. I don’t know enough of the biochemistry involved to answer them, other than the general observation that there are differences in carb response throughout the day for at least some people. The misc.health.diabetes FAQ goes over three different possible causes of higher blood sugar readings in the early morning, but I don’t think any of them has to do with changes in insulin resistance. One has to do with rebound from overnight hypoglycemic episodes. Another has to do with the liver dumping glycogen to give you energy to go out and catch your breakfast. I’m not sure about the third. Of course, if you tend toward hypoglycemia, the way you use this information in planning your menus would differ from the way I plan it.

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Many people (me included) have experienced the unpleasant low fat/low calorie diet phenomenon of having a ravenous appetite for carbs/sweets in the evening, shortly after an adequate dinner. Which would tend to suggest insulin problems in the *evening* rather than in the morning.

Me too! I have always assumed it was social conditioning, though — desserts after dinner, snacks before bed, cookies and milk for Santa, that sort of thing. I wonder why your body would process carbs differently at any time of the day? One of the things I like about low-carb is that I don’t have to eat most of my calories before bed… if I want to have a huge dinner at 10:00pm, I should (theoretically) not be affected. I mean, I hope. Mary S. — Mary Sweathe San Francisco, CA 160/130/120 LC Vegetarian Page: http://www.geocities.com/msweathe/veggie.html

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For Atkids, your carbs should be distributed throught the day. Eat a few with every meal but not too many at a time. Ev

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bollocks. If you eat carbs later in the day you stand more chance of not burning them off and they will store as fat. Eat them in the morning, you’ve already starved for 8 hours while asleep so you will need them. — Cheers Chris www.musclemonkey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk Send SMS message to me at: http://sms.totalise.net/?go=7968792241 Hello, I was in England a few weeks ago, and was reading The Times when I came across the following quote in the "Medical Briefing" by Dr. Thomas Stuttaford: "..insulin resistance is much higher in the morning than later in the day." This means that carbohydrates eaten at breakfast cause a greater insulin spike, than the same amount of carbs eaten later in the day. The implication is that a carb-free breakfast, with any carbs postponed to the later meals, is best both for health and weight loss. — Cheers, Ken "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." – George Carlin

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Hmmm… still pondering this one. If your insulin resistance is higher in the morning, is that what causes the "dawn effect" that I’ve read about in diabetics? Anyway, with more insulin resistance, you’d tend to have higher blood sugars in the morning. With less insulin resistance in the evening, you’d expect blood sugars to be lower. For diabetics, then, perhaps eating their carbs at night *would* be a good idea, as it would lower their need for insulin. For the rest of us, however, that may not be necessary? I tend to be hypoglycemic… so if I eat more carbs in the evening, and the insulin is working better then (because IR is reduced), then I would be more likely to get those little blood sugar lows after eating. I’m sure it is the post-meal insulin spikes followed by hypoglycemic episodes that account for the unnatural hunger I experience on a higher carb diet. And the insulin is doing it’s job of reducing BG better in the evening. Too well, in my case. So, for someone who tends to be hypoglycemic, as evidenced by all the usual symptoms, one of the most annoying of which is huge carb/sweet cravings in the evening after dinner, we’d want to avoid carbs in the evening, ’cause that’s what caused those insulin spikes, and the insulin drives down the blood sugar levels to a greater degree then. Diabetics, OTOH, who are trying to avoid *high* BG levels, would be better off eating their carbs more in the evening, so that what insulin function they have can do its job without so much outside assistance. Very interesting Linnen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When this topic’s come up on the diabetes newsgroups, several insulin-dependent posters noted that they require more insulin per carb portion for breakfast than later in the day. However, I certainly find that I’m a lot happier in general eating most of my daily carbs for breakfast and lunch and having very little for dinner. If I have enough protein for dinner, I don’t have problems in the evening. Walking up and down the stairs at work might not seem like exercise, but I’m definitely more active during the day than after dinner, for what it’s worth.

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Wow, really??? I’m gonna start that lowfat-high carb diet all those diet mags I have suggest right away then… :^PPPP Jakey — Low Carb Recipe Exchange http://communities.msn.com/webjake Lemon Pepper Catfish —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And your supporting science for this claim is… what? Look in just about any diet book or magasine…. …because diet books and magazines never, ever give incorrect or incomplete information. Cheers, Nina — 100% Angst http://www.theslack.com

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Bollocks. If you eat carbs later in the day you stand more chance of not burning them off and they will store as fat.

And your supporting science for this claim is… what? Eat them in the morning, you’ve already starved for 8 hours while asleep so you will need them.

We don’t NEED carbs at all… LEAST of all at a time separated from weight-bearing exercise.

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And your supporting science for this claim is… what?

Look in just about any diet book or magasine…. We don’t NEED carbs at all… LEAST of all at a time separated from weight-bearing exercise.

Go for it…..

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Well, this rather flies in the face of the experience of a lot of LCers. I haven’t seen a thread on this topic in ages, but in the past it seemed that most people who could tell any difference thought that carbs in the morning caused fewer problems (cravings, blood sugar excursions, etc.) than in the evening. But of course we’re all individuals… the YMMV factor probably applies here as well. Many people (me included) have experienced the unpleasant low fat/low calorie diet phenomenon of having a ravenous appetite for carbs/sweets in the evening, shortly after an adequate dinner. Which would tend to suggest insulin problems in the *evening* rather than in the morning. And its also not clear that this was some medical type’s *opinion* or supported by *valid* research. And we also need to keep in mind that things that apply to folks on a high carb/sugar diet may react to things quite differently than us LCers. Linnen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I was in England a few weeks ago, and was reading The Times when I came across the following quote in the "Medical Briefing" by Dr. Thomas Stuttaford: "..insulin resistance is much higher in the morning than later in the day." This means that carbohydrates eaten at breakfast cause a greater insulin spike, than the same amount of carbs eaten later in the day. The implication is that a carb-free breakfast, with any carbs postponed to the later meals, is best both for health and weight loss. — Cheers, Ken "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." – George Carlin

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And your supporting science for this claim is… what? Look in just about any diet book or magasine….

…because diet books and magazines never, ever give incorrect or incomplete information. Cheers, Nina — 100% Angst http://www.theslack.com

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I don’t agree. Personal experience has shown me that if I choose to eat some carbs, like oatmeal or fresh fruit or a slice of whole grain bread (usually when camping or when I will be exercising) then eating it early in the day and staying very lowcarb the rest of the day works best for me and does not stall my weight loss. Of course, that study may not apply to me at all if the study was done on folks who weren’t keto lowcarbing during the study. Kali Blonde.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I was in England a few weeks ago, and was reading The Times when I came across the following quote in the "Medical Briefing" by Dr. Thomas Stuttaford: "..insulin resistance is much higher in the morning than later in the day." This means that carbohydrates eaten at breakfast cause a greater insulin spike, than the same amount of carbs eaten later in the day. The implication is that a carb-free breakfast, with any carbs postponed to the later meals, is best both for health and weight loss. — Cheers, Ken "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." – George

Carlin

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Well, when you first get up you’ve been fasting for 8 hrs and your metabolism is revved up. Also, presumably, insulin resistance is much lower. — –

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Bollocks. If you eat carbs later in the day you stand more chance of not burning them off and they will store as fat. Eat them in the morning, you’ve already starved for 8 hours while asleep so you will need them. — Cheers Chris www.musclemonkey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk Send SMS message to me at: http://sms.totalise.net/?go=7968792241

Carlin

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Really? I always thought it was better in the morning because you would burn it off. I guess if I’m ever going to have that donut, then the morning is not the time to do it! Thanks for the tip Ken. I’ll make use of it!! — Mike, The Kansas Viking 210/185/175 Atkins 7/01/00 http://midusa.net/~vikings1/index.htm

Egads. Shouldn’t all us vikings be in Minnesota? — –

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FIGURES! I always eat most of my carbs in the morning thinking I’ll burn them off during the day. I guess I gotta change that. — The original Serena 320/175/160 26W/14regular/anything smaller than I am now – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I was in England a few weeks ago, and was reading The Times when I came across the following quote in the "Medical Briefing" by Dr. Thomas Stuttaford: "..insulin resistance is much higher in the morning than later in the day." This means that carbohydrates eaten at breakfast cause a greater insulin spike, than the same amount of carbs eaten later in the day. The implication is that a carb-free breakfast, with any carbs postponed to the later meals, is best both for health and weight loss. — Cheers, Ken "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." – George

Carlin

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